SL art goddess Sasun Steinbeck (right) organized a gathering of one of Second Life’s best groups, the Art Gallery Owners group, and brought RL lawyer Juris Amat in to discuss issues of intellectual property…and the rights we have with our intellectual property.
The entire transcript of the event is posted after the fold, but I’ll take the liberty to share what I think to be the crux of the situation. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone who knows me or reads this blog on a regular basis.
My feeling is that Linden Lab, through the way that they choose to govern the Second Life culture, has deliberately chosen to NOT make the security of intellectual property a priority in Second Life. As such, their policies allowing for grid hacks and anonymous accounts have made the Linden Lab assertions about enforcement of the American Digital Millenium Copyright Act laughable. I applaud the content creators who literally bared all to highlight the need to protect their intellectual property from piracy, but public awareness campaigns like theirs play to individual consumer guilt…not to systemic fixes.
Second Life, the platform owned by Linden Lab, IS able to offer systemic fixes if the owner of the platform want to make the fix. They have done so with gambling, inworld banking and ad farms (although the ad farm solution was less than ideal). This notion that they seem to be advancing is a “selective libertarianism” – not entirely the wild west that we expect, but not the controlled environment that one could reasonably expect with a proprietary immersive environment. Considering that Linden Lab clearly is willing to intervene in the Second Life society but cannot bring themselves to protect the rights of the creative class that they so desperately need to keep their anemic economy running….it defies logic.
Juris talks much more about the issues of intellectual property in Second Life art. The read is quite good. The issues are profound. The need for Linden Lab to recognize their responsibility to their customer base is undeniable.
So when’s something meaningful going to happen? What needs to happen for Philip Rosedale and his band of Lindens to step up and recognize that they (and they alone) have the tools to ensure Second Life’s primacy for months, if not years, to come?
I remain baffled by Linden Lab’s silence on this front. Now, enjoy the transcript…
ART GALLERY OWNERS GROUP8 March 2008Sasun Steinbeck: Yay Juris! Welcome!
Sasun Steinbeck: woohoo!
Sasun Steinbeck: welcome everyone! We’ll wait a few minutes for people to drop in then get started
Juris Amat: Do I really have to stand up here? yikes!
Tayzia Abattoir: lol
Callipygian Christensen: hello to everyone I am ignoring while I try to sit llol
Bez Bueller: hehehe juris
Sasun Steinbeck: LOL you’re in the hotseat
Nebulosus Severine: just imagine us all naked 😛
Bez Bueller: can i do that too neb?
Nebulosus Severine: sure 😉
Sasun Steinbeck: LOL Neb
Nebulosus Severine: hahaha
Bez Bueller: weeeeeee^^ i love art
Juris Amat: Naked hmmm doesnt help:)
Tayzia Abattoir: lol
Juris Amat: Im so glad to see all of you!
Sabine Stonebender: 😀
Sasun Steinbeck: 23 and counting yay!
Juris Amat: Awesome!
Sasun Steinbeck: 24!
Sasun Steinbeck: 🙂
Bernaar Sands: 90 to go?
Nebulosus Severine: hahaha
Sasun Steinbeck: hehehe that would be a blessing and a curse
ArtWorld Market: HEYYY Juris!
Juris Amat: Howdy ArtWorld!!
Sasun Steinbeck: Thanks to Artworld for recommending Juris for this session!
Sasun Steinbeck: Juris you can blame Artworld 🙂
Nebulosus Severine: thanks to artworld for reminding me about the meeting, heehee
ArtWorld Market: I neither admit nor deny anything
Sabine Stonebender: :3
Nebulosus Severine: haha
Juris Amat: No I am so thankful for the opportunity to be here today
Sasun Steinbeck: while we are waiting, please check out http://www.vipo-online.org/index.html
Bez Bueller: it that makes any sense at all.
Sasun Steinbeck: ok real quick reminder of the rules
Sasun Steinbeck: 1) Keep questions on topic. Legal issues related to art and artistic content creation in SL.
Sasun Steinbeck: 2) Don’t dominate the Q&A. Let others get their questions in.
Callipygian Christensen: with full permisssions and a signed waiver giving full rights for usage of any type
Sasun Steinbeck: 3) Don’t get upset. Take a deep breath and keep calm. Don’t take anything personally.
Sasun Steinbeck: and with that, I’ll open the floor to question to Juris!
Juris Amat: Let me have it
Sasun Steinbeck: fire away!
Juris Amat: Dont be shy
Bez Bueller: who are you Juris?
Bez Bueller: ^^
[Juris is the creator of the Non-Profit Virtual Intellectual Property Organization (VIPO) which offers accessible legal advice concerning virtual property, trade and commerce and the use of real life intellectual property in virtual worlds (http://www.vipo-online.org/index.html). – Sasun]
Alexia Cournoyer: how much does intellectual property impact on copyright within this world of ours?
Juris Amat: Metaphorically speaking?
Bez Bueller: errrr yes.
Bernaar Sands: how many people are artist and gallery owner in rl?
Alexia Cournoyer: I have a piece that the idea, the execution, even the name has been used without my permission
Alexia Cournoyer: but they build everything themselves
Alexia Cournoyer: so they’ve stolen the idea but not the actual piece
Juris Amat: Intellectual property law very much governs what happens here in world in terms of creative content
Twill Tymets: thats hard to prove I think.. but I know it happens
Sasun Steinbeck: good question Bernaar, I don’t have any actual data on that… I wish I knew
Juris Amat: infringement , enforcement and otherwise
Bernaar Sands: send a question to members?
Jay Newt: ha
Bernaar Sands: later on
Jay Newt: hahaha
Sasun Steinbeck: nods
Juris Amat: unless a work is registered with an appropriate copyright office is it very difficult to protect
Juris Amat: in the event of infringement
Bernaar Sands: i am asking it because when you know how things work in rl you should behave simular in sl
Alexia Cournoyer: as i understand it, it is no longer required to be copyrighted formally..
Juris Amat: meanwhile we all operate in world under the assumption that a given work is protected
Alexia Cournoyer: well at least in euope because of the berne convention
Alexia Cournoyer: only trademarks and patents need to be formally registered
Juris Amat: well the berne convention has been given effect in the us under the dmca
Bernaar Sands: thats correct
Juris Amat: copyright still need to be registered in order to be enforced
EdDereDdE Laval: well you cant realy compare these
EdDereDdE Laval: not in my opinion
Schmonson Dalglish: if SL is in California than the work is also protected against undo modification
Juris Amat: so we can all trade in art, objects etc that are copyrightable
EdDereDdE Laval: dmca is something different
Calixus Voom: Wouldnt it do to proof the earlier creation of the respective work by timestamp in terms of Copyright?
Juris Amat: however the issue comes in when someone copies your work and you need to enforce your ownership
Schmonson Dalglish: is SL located where the servers are?
EdDereDdE Laval: no
EdDereDdE Laval: the time stamp doesnt prove when the original work was done
Juris Amat: well, the problem is that in order to prove that you are a copyright owner you will have to produce a registration
Juris Amat: its possible to register a copyright at the time of infringement
Juris Amat: i mean I can imagine that you all create so many works that it would be time consuming and costly to register them all
Briarrose Nightfire: the problem with that, juris, is that i create so omany things — art, photography, poems, etc…i would spend too much of my creative time doing the paperwrok for the registration
Bernaar Sands: the problem is…..if you have copyright and someone is selling your art in sl, for about 2 dollars times 10 maybe, the lawyer will be more expensive to get your dollars back
Bernaar Sands: but it’s all about principals
Juris Amat: it is however important to identify those that you believe to have the most commercial value and try to protect them
Briarrose Nightfire: yes, bernaar, it hardly seems worth it
Briarrose Nightfire: in sl
Briarrose Nightfire: i hae no idea what of mine has commercial value
Bernaar Sands: ok
Juris Amat: thats true until someone is ripping off your chrome texture and you cant even send a dmca notification
ArtWorld Market: Juris, can’t an artist put all images, oems and whatever in a book and copyright the book?
Juris Amat: that is entirely possible
Juris Amat: and not a bad idea at all
Calixus Voom: Splendid Idea Art
Sabine Stonebender: ive heard putting them in an envelope and mailing it certified is a cheap way to time document it
EdDereDdE Laval: yes not a bad idea by default
Juris Amat: the system as it stands is outdated in terms of how works are created today
Juris Amat: we have to be creative in registration methods
Bernaar Sands: this all is an important issue, but it will continue inthe future, with or without good rules
Bernaar Sands: like rl
Sasun Steinbeck: I imagine the language of the copyright law doesn’t address electronic mediums very well at all, is that true?
Juris Amat: you have to understand that you all better than anyone at the copyright office understand what you need to protect
Calixus Voom: Well the first question would be for most people creating and offering their works in the multiverse: is there any online-authority to register at
Briarrose Nightfire: so, juris…if i created a book in sl of all my artwork and stories and such for sl, could i register that with the copyright office…and would that copyright the same material outworld as well as in?
Juris Amat: we can think out of the box about the how
EdDereDdE Laval: good
ArtWorld Market: Briarrose, you will need to export the pages to rl so you can send them to LC
Juris Amat: That will depend on whether you send them the same material
Briarrose Nightfire: ok…a pdf book then
ArtWorld Market: Naybe we should petition the lIBRARY OF cONGRESS TO OPEN A cOPYRIGHT oFFICE IN sl TO RECEIVE IN-WORLD SUBMISSIONS
ArtWorld Market: oops–sorry caps lock
Schmonson Dalglish: i would presume that all SL creations gothrought the servers in California and are thereby protected by the state of California’s copyright laws
Bettina Tizzy: That’s an interesting idea, ArtWorld
Nebulosus Severine: i agree
Bettina Tizzy: Would you be willing to take the initiative?
Bernaar Sands: would be good
Jay Newt: yeah- that’s really smart
Sasun Steinbeck: what a great idea
ArtWorld Market: Remind me when I’m sober
Schmonson Dalglish: the work iaautomatically copyrighted but the issue is one of enforcement
Nebulosus Severine: rofl
Sasun Steinbeck: LOL
Calixus Voom: Well, does the registration has to take place at governmental office of any kind or would (theoretical) a testimonial at a representing private community do?
Juris Amat: well that couldnt really apply to everyone could it?
Jay Newt: even if they didn’t we could start a registry of our own that could then be made official by law whenever the law catches up to it
Juris Amat: the laws of california
Bettina Tizzy: I would certainly endorse it *pours a bucket of water over Artworld’s head… to refresh him*
Calixus Voom nods at jay
Juris Amat: and copyright is federal law
EdDereDdE Laval: stop: not all servers will be in california anymore – do you know the separate brasilian grid? or the one they are about to build in australia?
Calixus Voom: just my point
ArtWorld Market: huh–where am I?
Tayzia Abattoir: lol
Juris Amat: the state of california doesnt really have the jurisdiction
Juris Amat: there is commlaw trademark law
Bettina Tizzy: oh?
Briarrose Nightfire: boggles the mind..
Juris Amat: not when it comes to enforcement
Bettina Tizzy: and where does that law reside?
Schmonson Dalglish: true but they are still p[rotected by the international copyright laws and SL is in CA for now
Calixus Voom: The jurisdiction that would apply … at least after German law would be the one of the country the offended party resides
Juris Amat: california for the purposes of this discussion is relatively irrelevant
Ferjeux Writer: just a question ur all in california? switzerland as also a international copyrigthing protection law
Schmonson Dalglish: then we can all send an alt to cali
EdDereDdE Laval: yes the local laws of the residents are of a certain importance as well i guess at least
ArtWorld Market: Juris, my understanding is that you losestatutory protections if its not registered either before an infringement or within 30 days of one–is that true?
EdDereDdE Laval: i am in germany
Ferjeux Writer: France
EdDereDdE Laval: and in europe it is very different per country – even if the european rights break local ones its still in a “moving” situation
Patrick Cournoyer: France here too
Bernaar Sands: Netherlands
Molina Rhode: germany too
Juris Amat: most countries follow the berne convention and allow for enforcement in most countries depending on where either the offender or owner resides
EdDereDdE Laval: bonjour la france
Gareth Qunhua: question how many % does a work need to be alterd to not be hounded by copyright?
Bernaar Sands: even in rl it’s very difficult
Patrick Cournoyer: bonjour à toi 🙂
EdDereDdE Laval: yes thats it “WHERE either * is”
Calixus Voom: Gareth that would be the exact question on which a court has to decide in case of doubt, I guess
EdDereDdE Laval: ihmm many say 25% but what is 25% of what?
Ferjeux Writer: the first question is witch judiction place can cover all activity’s on a international systeme …
Juris Amat: copyright protection is relatively weak and even the most modets modification may be interpreted as creative additions sufficient to avoid infringement
Juris Amat: however
Gareth Qunhua: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Berne_Convention.png
Gareth Qunhua: good map chart to see which country isn’t coverd by copyright
Juris Amat: its also true however that depending on the nature of the copying the copyright owner may claim that the work is a derivative works
Bernaar Sands: china
Juris Amat: great thank you
Bernaar Sands: we were in a case of copying in rl
Bernaar Sands: concerning china
Bernaar Sands: factory with 400 painters in it
Bernaar Sands: making 600 copies
Sasun Steinbeck: 400!?!
Jay Newt: i think creating our own set o fstandards and registration system independant of any gov. body would be smart to start with
Schmonson Dalglish: if you want to think outside of the box you may have to first accept that virtual creations will be copied and enforcing ones copyright would not be cost effective
Sasun Steinbeck: Jay I think that’s a very interesting idea
Jay Newt: the people in his meeting represent a lot of social power
EdDereDdE Laval: that wont help
Jay Newt: in this space
Juris Amat: ArtWorld I believe that again it may depend on where you are in the world whether there is a time limit for application filing within the date of infringement, I want to say no but the most recent issue I handled was in the UK and I dont want to mis…type
Schmonson Dalglish: a solution woudl be to let them go and recreate faster than the work can be stolen
Sasun Steinbeck: isn’t that similar to what the fashion designers are doing?
EdDereDdE Laval: you can do a proposal but the rl governments still are the “stronger” parts
Jay Newt: oh, i don’t know about that
Schmonson Dalglish: art is stolen and printed from books and websites, etc. with no challenges
Calixus Voom: Jay that might very well work. But to attain any authority you would have to press it in some legal organisational form that allows to act in court
Bernaar Sands: thety are designing fabric that is even more difficult to copy, they allready know the rest is lost
Juris Amat: What Ed said is very true
Briarrose Nightfire: one thing we have to consider before going after someone is whether theirs detracts from the commercial value of our own…given the cost of lawyers these days, pursuing infringement may not be worth it
Bettina Tizzy: Which is the most powerful and effective international organization to date in this regard, Juris?
Juris Amat: and the fact is that there will most likely be a technical solution to the problem before a legal one
Jay Newt: i thikn taht could come later the lawsuites but having a set of community standards that are recongized could be a first step enforced by shunning peolole that broke them
Jay Newt: sorry for the terrible typos
Schmonson Dalglish: the enforcement could be within the virtual community instead of RL with costly legal action
Bernaar Sands: think firtst some rules inworld
Sasun Steinbeck: exactly Schmonson
Briarrose Nightfire: but then, we have to have some formal means of fairly determining whether someone broke the standards
Juris Amat: There are ongoing efferts to create inworld enforcement mechanisms
Jay Newt: yeah- a rules committie
Bernaar Sands: when anyone doesnt follow them can get kicked out
Jay Newt: 🙂
Juris Amat: efforts
Schmonson Dalglish: the inventories could be checked
Bernaar Sands: there to start
ArtWorld Market: Can you tell us if any look like they will materialize?
Patrick Cournoyer: agreed maybe in the form of a comission
Schmonson Dalglish: as well as any transactions
Briarrose Nightfire: but it is easy to change a name of something…so checking inventories wouldn’t help
Bez Bueller: i could poop in their slippers.
EdDereDdE Laval: wont work
Nebulosus Severine: lol
Sasun Steinbeck: make it more like the BBB, a volunteer effort that conveys some sort of indication of quality
Patrick Cournoyer: at least not from a distance
EdDereDdE Laval: i give you just 2 samples : sex and casino games
Juris Amat: actually two that I know of virtually ..no pun intended.. have
Schmonson Dalglish: the name might change bit not the binary of the object itself
EdDereDdE Laval: did anything realy change since sl changed its policies on these?
Bernaar Sands: is it possible to get pictures of all art in a database that can be seen by members?
Gareth Qunhua: yes buisness went down
Bernaar Sands: can check it every now and then
Juris Amat: the software is completed, I believe that the parties involved are only waiting to complete their own administrative what not before implementing it
Juris Amat: That would be the Metaverse Republic
Calixus Voom: Schmoson: Now how would LL be forced to placego through someones inv piece by piece if needed to applay that idea on SL?
Briarrose Nightfire: one thing i just realized recently — i’ve been putting images from my exhibits on flickr for those who don’t have a chance to get out to my gallery…but those can be downloaded…and although not high enough resolution for a good rl print, they will work fine in sl…
Schmonson Dalglish: it can be done by showing the actual piece that you feel was copied and then through an automatic search
Gareth Qunhua: it’s not practical to check everyones inventory IMO
Tayzia Abattoir thinks they would get a headache if they tried to go thru mine to see the art in it
Briarrose Nightfire: there are millions here
Tayzia Abattoir: Of course it isnt
Schmonson Dalglish: it would be done robotically like search engines do
Juris Amat: There is much that Service providers can be forced to do, particularly under the DMCA, but I do not believe that the law could force them to go that far and I dont believe that they would volutarily do so
Bernaar Sands: the art should bin put in a database before you can upload them yourselves
Gareth Qunhua: which would put a strain on the servers and cause more downtime
Calixus Voom: Schmonson oh I would have no doubt about the practical act of the search, but do you really think LL would support this? Is there any prcedence?
Bernaar Sands: even more….yes
Gareth Qunhua: rember jun 2007 – nov2007?
Sasun Steinbeck: we need to self-police before we start asking LL to do things like search inventories and get all the lawyers involved
Juris Amat: what I was hoping was that the slpto would solve many of these registration questions
Schmonson Dalglish: the larger SL gets and the more money involved it will reach a head and they wil have to address it
Calixus Voom: Sasun: right
Gareth Qunhua: actualy all we have to do is just cut out people that we find is infringing on someone elses work
Schmonson Dalglish: Sasun you are right we should start ourselves, btu it will grow and become a LL problem eventually
Juris Amat: and it may, we have yet to see how courts would react to the validity of SLPTO registrations when and if they are challenged or requested to be recognized by courts
Calixus Voom: Schmonson: very true … we already had two fields where they did that: Gambling and banks
Briarrose Nightfire: well, we could set up a committee to certify authenticity, and have some kind of certification avialble….but that would take a lot of time and effort
Sasun Steinbeck: maybe not, if we do a good job of self-policing, it might be 95% effective, that may be good enough
Calixus Voom: and they flatly banned them
Gareth Qunhua: and frankly you guys has a web site or so you can post up their user names so the other galleries ownre can too
Ferjeux Writer: excuse my bad english, I think the real problem of all this to do a real copyrigt protection is that most of SL people anonyme are…
Tayzia Abattoir: Morris 🙂
Patrick Cournoyer: but their accounts are not
Robsub Tuck: self policing is great, and a stamp of approval is a very good plan, but what is to be done of the people who refuse to comply?
Morris Vig: OMG, It’s Tayzia!
Gareth Qunhua: without exposure they would have no buisness and would be force to quit what they are doing any way
Petronilla Paperdoll: welcome Morris 🙂
Juris Amat: I would say that to those who are interested in trying to protect their works but are skeptical of rl registration the slpto may be a safer bet
Sasun Steinbeck: welcome!
Briarrose Nightfire: well at least those of us who were certified…people would know they were getting authentic work
Juris Amat: has anyone heard of the SLPTO?
Tayzia Abattoir: lol
Bettina Tizzy: Gwen, so glad you could make it!
Calixus Voom: SLPTO?
Sasun Steinbeck: first I’ve heard of it, does it exist in world? Staffed by people at the PTO?
Jay Newt: one thing i’yeah- its going to be the stamp of legitmacy that makes it work-
Callipygian Christensen: We don’t self police very well..people have whole websites of copied images, nicely cropped to omit the copyright emblem, and whole collections of contemporary artists works..they advertise their galleries and openings on the Art and Artist ‘s Network..and laugh and say ‘because I can’ when youpoint out that what they are doing is wrong
Jay Newt: – well we’d just form a group that doesn’t do that
Nebulosus Severine: hmmm
Callipygian Christensen: if we won’t even shun them and their acivity, we arent going to get far with any othr ‘volunteer community action’
Briarrose Nightfire: copyright police…now there’s an sl job
Bernaar Sands: lol
Jay Newt: and that cgorup would becoe THE group to be in
Juris Amat: I think that its worth looking into, I advise VIPO clients to visit their website
Nebulosus Severine: calli — i’d love it if those people were reported to me, i will deal with them
ArtWorld Market: http://www.slpto.com/
Robsub Tuck: well, i suggest active positioning, stage protests
Juris Amat: Thank you ArtWorld
Sasun Steinbeck: Calli, ditto for me. I will guarantee that unethical gallery owners won’t be on my list in their lifetime
Nebulosus Severine: i will definitely take an active role in weeding out those types of galleries.
Juris Amat: I think that this is an effective mechanism for documenting creations
Bettina Tizzy: hmmm, who is behind the slpto?
Calixus Voom: Now there would be only one issue with self policing …. Sasun: what is the actual number of galleries in your list?
Sasun Steinbeck: ditto. I have no problem approaching people in person to talk to them, and that’s always been effective for me
ArtWorld Market: But speaking of enforcement, what authority does he have?
Juris Amat: its possible to create limited editions which thereby add value to creations
Sasun Steinbeck: over 400
Calixus Voom: with what growth rate?
Callipygian Christensen nods – I’ll go back and check my list of ‘peole I will never buy from or support’ lol
Schmonson Dalglish: i would suggest we read an article by Janey Bracken on theft in SL it is on the CNN beta site
Juris Amat: and better monitor and document the sale and trade in your
Juris Amat: works
Schmonson Dalglish: it covers a lot of what we are talkning about
Gareth Qunhua: well you can just search for fantasy art work in search
Schmonson Dalglish: the builders and designers are furous and many are considering leaving
Juris Amat: if in the event that you need to prove this or that it will be much easier to get a court or LL to force the SLPTO to open up its records than LL
Bernaar Sands: china is taking high def pics from art over here
Calixus Voom: Sasun: can you tell the monthly growth rate?
Juris Amat: or each individual user
Sasun Steinbeck: checking…
Gareth Qunhua: majority of them are stolen from famouse artist like kev walker or rebacca guey
Juris Amat: I will check out that article
Gwen Carillon: honestly , when I see that I send an email to the artist.
Schmonson Dalglish: here is teh url http://beta.ireport.com/docs/DOC-2213
Sabine Stonebender: opengl intercepts also make it possible for the textures streaming from sl to be stolen enmasse directly
Juris Amat: I will also add more info on the SLPTO onto the website for you all to view…
Briarrose Nightfire: i am wondering…the sl policies prohibit copyright violation…how is it that the thieves can respond by saying “I do it because i CAN”…it would seem to me that they should get banned from sl
Juris Amat: I just received from the SLBA info about a Content theft conference on March 15th held by SL’ang
Bernaar Sands: i do because i can is for the dumb
Bernaar Sands: kick out
Robsub Tuck: it’s very common
Calixus Voom: Thanks for the graph Sasun. This shows a rough growth of about 10 places on the Sasun List per month … which is only a part seen on whole SL
Morris Vig: Will any Lindens attend? Do they care yet?
Nebulosus Severine: if the lindens don’t care by now, i doubt they ever will
Schmonson Dalglish: if they get kicked out they come back on different computers as alts
Gwen Carillon: Thing is…SL cannot/ will not police this…
Bernaar Sands: the more publicity the better for LL
Juris Amat: so many people these days think that its nouveau to be anti intelelctual property that ip is a hinderance to the technology age
Nebulosus Severine: they are cold, uncaring gods, lol
Sasun Steinbeck: yeah they just say, go file a DCMA takedown notice 😦
Gwen Carillon: It’s up to us to follow up
Juris Amat: the exact opposite is the case
Robsub Tuck: i think if enough people get involved and show numbers, LL will care
Calixus Voom: now when we take it as a base assumption that there is a higher growth, involving all those new will be decicively hard
Gwen Carillon: through legal route
Bettina Tizzy: I think it is helpful to determine safeguards for sl works, but opensim and other virtual worlds are about to kick in and sl will only be one part of the picture. Moving forward, I propose that any effort take all VW activities into account.
Gwen Carillon: and by working together
Gareth Qunhua: well may i suggest someone to tour the gallery listed in the tour on a regular basis to check on content teft?
Juris Amat: and its pretty 18th century to be anti people having rights
Briarrose Nightfire: well, we could “unionize” and threaten to leave sl enmasse
Briarrose Nightfire: if they don’t respond
Schmonson Dalglish: as with the goverment dealing with computer hackers we can get one of them that is caught and rehibilitated to work for us and track down theives and we may be then able to self disipline 🙂
Bettina Tizzy: SL is only one part of the story though!! In one year, this is going to be a different scenario!!
Gwen Carillon: there’s a fine line between policing and a witch hunt
Juris Amat: lol
Gareth Qunhua: it’s a good way to check for dead links to empty plot too :p
Sasun Steinbeck: Gareth, I’d love the help, I may not recognize stolen works
Calixus Voom: Briarosse would you be willing to do that step, just in case you find out that LL dont care?
Schmonson Dalglish: i woudl love to unionize, but the world is full of scabs that will replace us
Yrys Flanagan: Dont we all do because we can?
Schmonson Dalglish: we should unionize but stay put
Briarrose Nightfire: unfortunately true
Calixus Voom nods at Schmonson
Bettina Tizzy: If there is a union… please consider making it a Virtual Worlds Union and NOT a LL-ONLY union.
ArtWorld Market: There was the issue last year of people calling a bocott of a gallery for selling stolen works and it turned out to be vage and posibly a publicity stunt.
Gareth Qunhua: not to bitch but sometimes the HUD would just tp someone to an empty plot/stall/ restricted area
Juris Amat: I htink that the situtation that you’re in unfortunately many digital content providers face
Gareth Qunhua: if theres a way for us to report such things would be great
Bernaar Sands: recognition is to all of us on sl, when there would be a ‘ public’ image database, anyone can catch the wrong fishes then
Gwen Carillon: if I may make a suggestion? the designers are already organized…we need to stop dividing ourselves and work as a community
Sasun Steinbeck: Gareth, definitely report them to me if it’s on my list!
Juris Amat: and believe me if sony, warner brothers etc have issues with stopping illegal copying of their works you will to
Juris Amat: or works they own
Bettina Tizzy: Seriously, you guys… talking SL alone is sooooo last year. Please think VIRTUAL WORLDS
Gwen Carillon: I agree Bet
Sasun Steinbeck: good point Gwen
Morris Vig: Not entirely Bet – the problem is in the SL platform. Many don’t play in other worlds. It’s a Linden Lab issue. And they don’t care.
Morris Vig: Linden Lab has made it easier to steal works than protect them.
Juris Amat: So have you heard of digital rights management?
Calixus Voom: Bettina: good point. But the fact is that forus is that SL is kind of our turf where we might act
Bettina Tizzy: But Opensim is just around the corner, Morris
Gareth Qunhua: no i mean a more efficient method like a web page with gallery listed so we can report
Morris Vig: and opensim is the SL platform
ArtWorld Market: I’ve been trying to find another virtual world where creativity is supported the way it is here, and stuff is being produced that is as interesting–
Juris Amat: its all of the protection used to keep people from copying cd s dvds whatever
Gareth Qunhua: lets just say i’m a lazy person :p and we don’t have to fear that you will miss the IM due to cap messages
Bettina Tizzy: i would use the language of VIRTUAL WORLDS… not just SL… by the time this gets organized, SL-language only will be obsolete
Bettina Tizzy: sorry to harp on taht
Bettina Tizzy: but I’m 100% convinced
ArtWorld Market: Bettina has a good point
ArtWorld Market: but to take it further
Juris Amat: i havent found another VW thats this supportive of users owning the content that they create
Morris Vig: The designer public awareness campaign is nice and all, but they (we?) need to take it straight to LL in order to get anything to happen. The message is “Linden Lab doesn’t care that my property is getting stolen.”
ArtWorld Market: I attended a Linden in-world discussion where they were talking about the technology being developed to move your avatar and objects BETWEEN WORLDS
Schmonson Dalglish: Virtual World Creatives Union local SL to start
Nebulosus Severine: nor have i
ArtWorld Market: So you can create it here or there or THERE
Gwen Carillon: also…to work within the system and with LL not pick up the pitchforks. We get more done with a willing ear
Nebulosus Severine: ack, chat lag 😛
ArtWorld Market: and export or import it
Juris Amat: that should be the idea why not?
ArtWorld Market: so the IP question will be VERY “Virtual WorldS”
Gareth Qunhua: well yah most investors belive that bettina but it would still take some time for a intergrated singularity virtual world to exist
Juris Amat: I assumed that eventually it would be
ArtWorld Market: They may be closer than we think
Nebulosus Severine: i hope so 😛
Juris Amat: but think about the enormous risk taken by these LL guys i mean
EdDereDdE Laval: ip only with time stamp – w/o everybody could have used that ip
ArtWorld Market: IBM, all the VR s, etc are in the consortium
Juris Amat: they are the world that completely turned over the control of the rights to creative content to users
Juris Amat: i mean isnt that we’re all here
Gwen Carillon: nods
Schmonson Dalglish: the chips are going holographic and once in place the net will be virtual
ArtWorld Market: Then there’s the TOS
Juris Amat: there are mechanisms availble both in and ot of SL to allow to enforce those rights
ArtWorld Market: 3.2 and 3.3
ArtWorld Market: We do not own the things we create here
ArtWorld Market: LL does
Gareth Qunhua: well i’m here because i miss the internet boom to be honest :p
Juris Amat: ok dont get me started on their right to retain licensing provisions
Juris Amat: we don’t want to go there
ArtWorld Market: come on..;>}
Morris Vig: and if LL actively enforced the TOS for the benefit of the creators, then it would be another story.
Gwen Carillon: we own the design…we own the textures we create
Juris Amat: but i mean lets give them a bit of a break
Juris Amat: the more we rely on them to perform tasks for us as residents the more expensive iot becomes for them to be in this game
ArtWorld Market: Actually, we do not own the textures. We own the rights to reprodsuce the images
Gwen Carillon: nods
Gareth Qunhua: ahh yah thats some thing on my mind too, so are we basicly screwed because we agree on the TOS where LL practicaly owns our works?
ArtWorld Market: except that LL has a permanent irrevocable license to them…
Schmonson Dalglish: Virtual World Creative Union can charge dues to offset expenses
Juris Amat: ArtWorld….
Juris Amat: 🙂
ArtWorld Market: sorry
Juris Amat: now you say that
Juris Amat: 🙂
Juris Amat: No but you’re absolutely right
Briarrose Nightfire: a question…if we delete something we created from our inventory, such as a textures, is it still available somewhere for the lindens?
Schmonson Dalglish: must be
Calixus Voom: lol sure …rollback and there it is again
Gwen Carillon: the other problem …that has been discussed in CCA …how to defend work with an group attorney when member s are all over the world
Juris Amat: i wouldnt bank on the fact that it is but it is likely somewhere
Calixus Voom: they have to keep copies
Gareth Qunhua: yup
Juris Amat: although the periodically delete thongs from their servers and under the tos
EdDereDdE Laval: not that easy – we can aggree to that tos – its illegal in many respects … ll wont be able to enforce anyhting
Sasun Steinbeck: I recall them saying that once all references to an object (copies) are gone from the world, they purge it from their databases. But I bet they have old backups they store, maybe
Juris Amat: are not responsible for what has been lost
Bettina Tizzy: Yes, that’s an interesting question, Gwen… I’d like to hear Juris’ views on that
EdDereDdE Laval: there is exactly ONE backup
Juris Amat: My views on the legality of the TOS
EdDereDdE Laval: and thats the problem
Juris Amat: its oppressive
EdDereDdE Laval: the tos is illegal – so no worries
Nebulosus Severine: illegal?
Bettina Tizzy: huh?
EdDereDdE Laval: thats all shit sorry for the strong word but they cant enforce anything on itg
EdDereDdE Laval: it is
EdDereDdE Laval: illegal
EdDereDdE Laval: in germany at least and in europe too
Juris Amat: I would argue that its a contract that is way too one sided to be enforceable
EdDereDdE Laval: and they have an office in the uk
EdDereDdE Laval: tho
Briarrose Nightfire: well here’s the thing…the way the digital media world is going….for example, newspapers now have site where people can have blogs…the media say that in order to participate you have to grant them reproduction rights to infinity….that’s not illegal, apparenty
Yrys Flanagan: Cheese
EdDereDdE Laval: right juris
Juris Amat: ut failed to withstand attack already
EdDereDdE Laval: more than once lindens got a kick in their buts in rl courts
Gareth Qunhua: i think it’s illegal in any country that enforce pirating laws
EdDereDdE Laval: they have no chance in europe
Gwen Carillon: and there we have it…we have artists/ creators from all over the glob collaborating and creating …and laws are sketchy
Juris Amat: in its previous incarnation
Gwen Carillon: this is new ground
Sasun Steinbeck: LOL scary, isn’t it
Gwen Carillon: yes
EdDereDdE Laval: well its rl haha
ArtWorld Market: Exciting!
Gareth Qunhua: because what states in the TOS is no diffrent then burning a CD and selling it
EdDereDdE Laval: right
Sasun Steinbeck: true Artworld, always exciting 🙂
Sasun Steinbeck: hey folks we’re at 12:00 so we’re going to start winding down soon
Juris Amat: oh my goodness
Calixus Voom: winding down?
Sasun Steinbeck: of course Juris can stay if she likes for more questions 🙂
Bernaar Sands: will be continued
Gareth Qunhua: bah you westerners and your daylights saveing thingy
Sasun Steinbeck: no hard deadline here
Juris Amat: it feels like we’re just getting started
Sasun Steinbeck: well let’s keep going!
Juris Amat: No but about that tos
Bettina Tizzy: what have we agreed on? anything?
Gwen Carillon: Juris…what do we do about legal coverage within a group for crreators from different countries?
EdDereDdE Laval: i dont care i am am 24/7 brain dead
Juris Amat: I mean it was determined by a US judge to be a contract of adhesion
Bernaar Sands: thanx Juris and Sasun, need to go in rl, ill contact later, bye all
Juris Amat: so imbalanced were the terms that a user had to agree to to access the service
EdDereDdE Laval: that means what exactly bernaar?
Juris Amat: I personally think its gotten worse
EdDereDdE Laval: or juris?
Sasun Steinbeck: thanks for coming!
Nebulosus Severine: tc bernaar
Bettina Tizzy: Sas and Juris, many thanks
Juris Amat: Thank you for coming!
Gwen Carillon: ty all
Juris Amat: Please dont hesitate to send me any questionsž
Juris Amat: ever
EdDereDdE Laval: yes it is completely out of balance that tos
EdDereDdE Laval: my i add you for later discussions juris? i prefer a more quiet talk
Juris Amat: and the court also looked at the fact that the user involved had an interest in his account
Sasun Steinbeck: I’m really glad to hear that from someone that knows much more about law that me, because it sure as hell seemed one-sided to me, and to an awful lot of people that really read it closely
Juris Amat: hence all the talk about virtual property
EdDereDdE Laval: ic
Gwen Carillon: take care all 🙂
Gwen Carillon: ty
Callipygian Christensen: thanks for scheduling this Sasun, and thanks for the information Juris
EdDereDdE Laval: thx
Juris Amat: Yes please feel free to forward me any invitations for discussions etc
Delia Lake: bye Gwen
Sasun Steinbeck: thanks to those that need to run!
Bettina Tizzy: ty Gwen… take care all
Callipygian Christensen: later all 🙂
Sasun Steinbeck: bye bye!
Briarrose Nightfire: bye
Juris Amat: Id appreciate that:)
Bettina Tizzy: Sis, bye bye!
Petronilla Paperdoll: Bye everybody – it was really interesting 🙂
Juris Amat: Bye!
Bez Bueller: mrrow purr^.^
Sasun Steinbeck: take care!
Gareth Qunhua: lol
Juris Amat: meow
Calixus Voom: Have a nice evening all:)
Nebulosus Severine: tc, anyone who is leaving 🙂
Juris Amat: 🙂
fabilene Cortes: bye and tx , sasun , Juris
Sasun Steinbeck: you’re very welcome
Juris Amat: bye!
Delia Lake: are we going t continue this discussion in a future meeting?
Morris Vig: nice dialogue, Sasun
Sasun Steinbeck: we certainly could, sure
Sasun Steinbeck: I intend to have more Art Gallery Owner group meetings
Sasun Steinbeck: and this will be a frequent topic I’m sure 🙂
Nebulosus Severine: yay sasun 🙂
Nebulosus Severine: been a long time since we’ve had one, it seems
Delia Lake: excellent and thank you
Sasun Steinbeck: LONNNG time I know
Juris Amat: I would be happy to drop in whenever you want to have me:)
Gareth Qunhua: anyway thanks for the dailog susan juris
Sasun Steinbeck: excellent, thank you so much Juris
Sasun Steinbeck: this was awesome
Gareth Qunhua: i’m going to hit the sack now
Nebulosus Severine grins
Morris Vig: thx Juris
Nebulosus Severine: yes, thanks juris
Juris Amat: My pleasure
Bez Bueller: MrrrDink^.^
Sasun Steinbeck: anyone that wants to hang out with any last questions, feel free
Juris Amat: Yes please
Ferjeux Writer: just a sugestion … in France whenn someone rigting a texte that he whant to protect, he depose it in a special office, who just registrate that on the date of depose, and when he as a copyright problem that is the prouve that he is the first who deed the text… Why we don’t imagine a same systeme for sl ?
Morris Vig: I think I’ll be off too. Thanks again, Sasun & Juris
Nebulosus Severine: tc, morris 🙂
Nebulosus Severine: good to see ya
Juris Amat: Thats basically what the SLPTO does
EdDereDdE Laval: yes we call this “notar” or “notariat” in germany
Juris Amat: they provide you with a vault
Juris Amat: in which you deposit objects
Morris Vig: u 2 neb
Nebulosus Severine: 🙂
Juris Amat: its really interesting…maybe I could host a session about registration using their system at VIPO offices
Sabine Stonebender: Wheeee! ^.^
Juris Amat: I really think that it could help in many ways
Ferjeux Writer: 🙂
EdDereDdE Laval: many ways to go
Sasun Steinbeck: oooo yes sounds interesting
Juris Amat: all right I’ll set that up and let you guys know when
EdDereDdE Laval: depends on the countries as well
ArtWorld Market: Maybe help, but if people start to think registering with Flip gives you the same protection as the LC, it might be an issue.
Juris Amat: right but I agree that the solution to these problems should be in world
EdDereDdE Laval: got to go – cu soon juris 🙂
Sasun Steinbeck: fabulous Juris thanks, I can help get word out
Juris Amat: virtual
Juris Amat: virtual solution
EdDereDdE Laval: yes it should be the first filter at first acknowledged hehe
Juris Amat: Thank you for coming
ArtWorld Market: Perhaps, but h ow does that deal with rl knockoffs of virtual works?
Juris Amat: Bye Ed
EdDereDdE Laval: i deal with many ppl in rl arround the world
EdDereDdE Laval: from europe to africa to asia and usa
Juris Amat: well then we end up right back at registrations
Juris Amat: rl registrations that is
EdDereDdE Laval: so its very different i see this depending on where you are
Juris Amat: at least until adequate enforcement mechanisms are created in world
Juris Amat: they are coming
EdDereDdE Laval: bb for now yes right
Bez Bueller purrrrs
EdDereDdE Laval: they are but have drawbacks as well
EdDereDdE Laval: cu ^^
Sasun Steinbeck: interesting. Artists need to be involved in those enforcement mechanisms so that we can give feedback… to avoid something being put in place that is flawed
Nebulosus Severine nods
Juris Amat: Im not exactly sure how or even whether digital content owners will resolve this problem
Juris Amat: technology is always capable of being circumvented
Ferjeux Writer: like timing list of creation that prouve that u did it first… it’s the first step to any procedure
Sasun Steinbeck: yep, like glintercept
Juris Amat: and unfortunately usually it is the infringers who are on the cutting edge
Juris Amat: of breaking technological guards
Juris Amat: they have incentive
Juris Amat: but I dont want to be depressing
Juris Amat: 🙂
Juris Amat: i think that theres much that we can do to combat content theft
Sasun Steinbeck: well I think we can and in some cases have done a lot to stop a few of the most aggregious offenders
Juris Amat: diligent protection of rights
ArtWorld Market: The exciting thing is that people think art is worth stealing!
Nebulosus Severine: hehehe
Ferjeux Writer: step by step…
Sasun Steinbeck: LOL true ArtWorld
Juris Amat: thats cool right
Delia Lake: i’ve got to leave now. thank you again for this important discussion
Juris Amat: and that the theft does help top disseminate the work
Sasun Steinbeck: Take care Delia!
Nebulosus Severine: tc delia
Juris Amat: Bye!
Delia Lake: bye 🙂
ArtWorld Market: Well, that is back to the issue of false infringement for publicity
Juris Amat: right
ArtWorld Market: like last year’s gallery boycott
Juris Amat: what happened?
Sasun Steinbeck: Well we’re a long ways from the perfect solution. Anything that’s going to require a lot of work or time or money on the part of everyone participating will probably fail
Nebulosus Severine: what was the deal with that again? i vaguely remember
Sasun Steinbeck: it needs to be simple
ArtWorld Market: Someone sent a notice on Neb’s group saying boycott this gallery, they are showing stolen work
Nebulosus Severine: simple is almost always better, i agree sasun
ArtWorld Market: and lots of messages
Juris Amat: hmmm
Sasun Steinbeck: oh jeez
Nebulosus Severine: bleh
Juris Amat: Right simple
ArtWorld Market: but it turned out that there was no evidence of anything amiss
ArtWorld Market: so it looked like they were just trying to get people to go there
Sasun Steinbeck: let me guarantee one thing, in every case of “he stole my shit!” there’s another side of the story
Nebulosus Severine: how annoying ;P
Juris Amat: yikes
Juris Amat: creepy
Nebulosus Severine: yes, definitely sasun
ArtWorld Market: I think I wrote about it at the time–will have to look
Sasun Steinbeck: so be careful before you deputize the hanging committee and go out searchingn for blood
Juris Amat: Well I think that we shoulcd have a sit down about simple solutions
ArtWorld Market: I recall having a memory once…
Nebulosus Severine: hehe
Sasun Steinbeck: LOL you forgot to take your memory pills again, ArtWorld
Juris Amat: I think that Ill see what I can come up with asd far as a few strategies
ArtWorld Market: great, Juris
Juris Amat: ArtWorld:)
Ferjeux Writer: but the problem is … who ar telling the thuth
Sasun Steinbeck: excellent, I’d love to hear some of those ideas
Sasun Steinbeck: yes Ferjeux, both sides are always convinced they are 🙂
Juris Amat: well maybe instead of just the slpto I can include a few other solutions into that session
Juris Amat: and make a combatting content theft thing
Sasun Steinbeck: I like that idea
ArtWorld Market: yes
Juris Amat: I’ll get working on that
Sasun Steinbeck: fabulous!
Sasun Steinbeck: we appreciate it
ArtWorld Market: great turnout today
Sasun Steinbeck: yeah! this was such a great session
Juris Amat: I think so too
Sasun Steinbeck: the chat log will be widely read, I’m sure
Juris Amat: totally!
ArtWorld Market: Many more wanted to come but couldn’t–
Nebulosus Severine: yeah
Juris Amat: right
ArtWorld Market: I heard from them
ArtWorld Market: yes
Schmonson Dalglish: this was an excellent session
Sasun Steinbeck: glad to hear that Schmonson!
Schmonson Dalglish: i am very pleased that ArtWolrd reminded me
Schmonson Dalglish: thanks Art World
Juris Amat: Sure and please be sure to stress that any questions that I didnt answer to put to my attention and Ill deliver a direct response
Sasun Steinbeck: cool
Nebulosus Severine: yes, thanks for the reminder, artworld 🙂
ArtWorld Market: glad you came, Neb
Nebulosus Severine: me too ^_^
Juris Amat: Wow, thanks for your all efforts ArtWorld
ArtWorld Market: I have to go now–there’s a book calling me to bind it.
ArtWorld Market: ;>}
Nebulosus Severine: hehehe woot :))
Sasun Steinbeck: we’ll do this again soon, these are fun. It’s good to get semi-organized, there are a lot of art content creators in SL
Nebulosus Severine: tc art, good to see ya
Sasun Steinbeck: seeya ArtWorld!
Sabine Stonebender: bye bye
Juris Amat: My kiddies are running around crazy protesting bedtime
Sasun Steinbeck: thanks for coming and helping round up the troops
Juris Amat: Bye!
Schmonson Dalglish: Bye
Juris Amat: Take care ArtWorld
Sasun Steinbeck: ok time for me to go too
Nebulosus Severine: tc sasun 🙂
Sasun Steinbeck: thanks SO MUCH Juris for coming
Sabine Stonebender: i def hope we can get a few easy ways to do all the protecting
Juris Amat: I will also call it a night.
Juris Amat: Really it was my pleasure!
Sasun Steinbeck: yes Sabine we need to do some thinking on where to go from here
Juris Amat: Thank you for having me, I so enjoyed being here.
Nebulosus Severine: tc juris, nice to meet you
Bez Bueller: mrrow purr^.^
Juris Amat: Likewise Neb:)
Sasun Steinbeck: fabulous. Always a fascinating topic for content creators 🙂
Nebulosus Severine: 😀
Sasun Steinbeck: Thanks everyone for coming!
Ferjeux Writer: 🙂
Sabine Stonebender: ya’ll take care, i have lunch calling my name
Juris Amat: Bye!
Sasun Steinbeck: I’ll do this again next month or so
zephyru Zapedzki: ty sasun
Nebulosus Severine: awesome
Sasun Steinbeck: bye everyone!
Nebulosus Severine: tc everybody 🙂
Bez Bueller: meow^.^
zephyru Zapedzki: bye all
Sabine Stonebender: Maowwrrlll..
Sasun Steinbeck: bye!
Juris Amat: Great, bye
Sasun Steinbeck: thanks again Juris, great job 🙂